Being a teenager is tough enough without bullying being involved; but when it is, things can get a whole lot harder. Teenagers naturally want to become more independent from their parents – so their friends take on a more important role in their lives. Sometimes their wish to fit in, can lead them to do things they know they shouldn't - like becoming involved in bullying others or not speaking out when they see someone else doing it. Or perhaps they become the target – just at the time their self-esteem is lowest, or when they are experimenting with their clothes or appearance – comments or ridicule from others can make them unhappy or withdrawn.

As a parent, it can be challenging to communicate with your kids as they grow up. When you think they might be dealing with bullying, it can be even harder to know where to start. As part of Anti-bullying Week, which runs from 17th to 21st November, agony aunt, journalist and parenting expert Suzie Hayman will be joining us live online to discuss how you can support your teenager as well as cope with your own emotions if bullying becomes part of your lives. Suzie will be on hand to focus on a variety of topics such as why bullying happens, signs to look out for and what you can do to support your teenager through this difficult time.

For information and practical tips on dealing with bullying visit www.besomeonetotell.org.uk and www.gotateenager.org.uk

H: Nicola Bonn, host
S: Suzie Hayman, journalist and parenting expert

H: Hello and welcome to the Parenting Show, I'm Nicola Bonn. Now then, as a parent it can be challenging to communicate with your kids as they grow up. When you think they might be dealing with bullying it can be even harder to know where to start. Well on today's show we're going to be discussing this, and looking at why bullying happens, what the signs are to look out for and what you can do to support your teenager. I'm joined today by agony aunt, journalist and parenting expert Suzie Hayman to discuss this and more. Hello Suzie, how are you?

S: Hello Nicola, I'm fine, how are you doing?

H: Good, very well thanks. Suzie I'm going to start off by saying why do kids bully?

S: Usually bullying is about passing the parcel. It's about a child who feels bad about themselves, low self-esteem, who feels angry and upset, often because either they themselves are being pushed around somewhere else in their life or have been somewhere in their life. Something might have changed, something's happen for instance if the family's crumbling, you know if a family member has left the home. There's a sort of a deep well there of anger and frustration, and it's a bit like, you know, you've got this nasty parcel and you want to dump it in somebody else's lap. And so often what people are looking for when they bully is they're looking for a way of getting power back, of getting a feeling of being in control back, of getting a feeling of being on top back. And so they go and they push somebody else around thinking it's going to make them feel better

H: Why do they choose a certain person? I mean what's – when a bully's going to choose someone to pick on, who will it be?

S: Well necessarily they're going to choose someone who's vulnerable. So they're going to choose someone who perhaps hasn't got a big group of friends, who isn't bigger than them, tougher than them, you know, more self-confident than them. They're going to pick the person who appears to be an easy target. So yes they'll usually use the excuse of, you know I'm picking you because you are – you know a different colour than me, you're you know, you've got specs, you're – you know you're the nerdy person whose the swot or something like that, but actually what they're looking for is something that allows, you know a chink in the armour, and often what they're picking is people who are low in self-esteem and self-confidence. In a sense, just like them. So you then get a cycle. Because I think this is a rather important point that we have to recognise about bullying – it's not easy to talk about bullies and the bullied, because it's not always as simple as that, because as I've already said people who bully often are doing it because they've got a problem somewhere else in their life. And so you know they already have been bullied. So you've got this line that people jump across back and forth, they bully, they become bullied, they bully, they become bullied. So you know how do you pick somebody? Well yes it's somebody who perhaps doesn't feel good about themselves which of course gives you the answers sometimes about what you can do about it. Raise that self-confidence and that person therefore doesn't become the person who's going to be picked on

H: So you're a parent and you've seen that your child is either a bully or is being bullied; let's cover your child is a bully. First of all, how can you tell that your child is a bully?

S: Well again actually when you say let's do first, actually I'd say you can do them together

H: Ok

S: Because I think – let's talk about being involved in bullying, because you can be both sides. When you're involved in bullying, whether you're involved as being the person whose being bullied or involved in the person whose doing it, actually often the signs are the same, because what happens is somebody perhaps changes, they become – and you may think well this is a lot of, this is teenage behaviour, so they may start becoming moodier, you know they don't want to talk to you, they change their habits, and that can be all signs of being an ordinary teenager, but often what's going on is yes, they – something's happened in their life and they're feeling miserable. If they're being bullied they may actually come home of course bruised, clothes torn, belongings missing. They may suddenly make all sorts of excuses about not wanting to go to school – stomach aches, headaches, you know all sorts of reasons – well they try and stay at home perhaps. They may be that suddenly they don't seem to have the same friends they had. You may see them answering their mobile phone or going on the internet and then suddenly being very upset because perhaps they've been receiving nasty messages

H: Right

S: So there's, you know you're seeing them actually reacting to something that's coming to them. They can be passing it on, so suddenly a child in your family may start pushing around younger siblings

H: And that could be someone who's being bullied?

S: Because what they're doing is they're coming home feeling really upset and frantic and frustrated, and so they're passing it on to someone else

H: so in a way a bully could be being treated badly by somebody they start bullying

S: Exactly

H: And it kind of carries on

S: exactly

H: In a chain

S: So what you're looking for is changes, unhappiness, misery, lost objects, you know changes in friendship patterns and things like, you know the obvious triggers are they're on the phone and they come off and they're very unhappy

H: Yes. Now you've seen these signs – what do you do with them?

S: You take a deep breath

H: Yes I was going to say

S: Before you do anything, and I think it's very, very tempting as a parent to rush in, because you want to protect your child, and you might feel very, very angry about what's going on and you may absolutely want to charge in and do something immediately, grab your child, rush to the school, you know, insist on seeing the head. Take a deep breath, count to 10 and think. You have to actually relax yourself before you can help your child, and the first thing I think you need to think about is yourself and your reactions, because frequently our reaction to our children being bullied is about maybe our own past. So we're seeing a child, this is happening to a child, and on the back of our mind we're actually thinking about our own past. Maybe we were bullies, maybe we were bullied, and the knee jerk reaction we have is more about that and perhaps about solving that problem than solving your child's problem. So firstly think about, you know, where am I, what am I feeling, what am I thinking, what is this all about, and then what you need to do is talk with your child. It's really important to sit down. And the sort of questions you ask, you know you don't interrogate, you don't say you know there's something going on isn't there? Are you being bullied? You sit down and you say, you know, what sort of day have you had at school? What's happening, and tell me about your – so you're asking open questions that get the child talking, and from that you can perhaps feel your way in to ah, there's something wrong here. And then you can say, that doesn't sound very nice, or it sounds like there's a problem there. So you're having a conversation, a communication where you're listening as much as you're talking, so you know to make your child in a sense trust you, relax and tell you about it. Because the odds are, whichever side of that line they're on, whether they're doing it or receiving it, that they are feeling very bad about themselves. They're feeling ashamed, humiliated, angry, frustrated – and often guilty. It's all their fault, they're thinking. Whether they're doing it or having it done to them

H: Right

S: So they may not want to talk to you because they may not want to show, you know, that this is actually going on, because they're ashamed of it

H: So never go straight to them and say "are you being bullied? Are you a bully?" doesn't work

S: Just get that conversation going, share a bit of your feelings, ask for their feelings, feel your way into it

H: Ok. Now a lot of people have actually got in touch already just asking questions. I'll start with this one – "my son is always bullying his sister at home, calling her names, she's becoming increasingly upset by this and asking why he hates her so much. I really don't know what to do or say and I can't understand why he's doing it. Can you help us?"

S: Yes. I think the first thing to remember always is there's a reason. Bullying is a symptom, not a problem. It's a symptom of another problem, so something's going on there in this child's life for him to be doing that, and perhaps, you know again have a think about are there changes in the family, what's happened in this child's life that has led him to feel that the way to make himself feel better about himself is to sort of offload it on his sister. Is he having problems at school, is he having problems in the family? You know, what is there going on here. So that's the first thing to start thinking about, and I think then you start talking to your children. And the one thing I think is really important in families is to have boundaries and lines that you draw. In this house, we d not call each other names. Period. You know, we don't do that. If you're upset you talk, tell me what you're upset about. Let's discuss it, let me see if I can help you, but you do not push each other around and you do not – I mean I've often found that actually having the whole family to sit down to talk about the family rules. Sometimes you know all families have rules, we don't necessarily talk about them, so we know when you come in, you know, from school you have to hang your coat up. You know that you should put your clothes in the laundry bin. You know there are those sorts of rules. It actually helps to codify them. So what you say is well I would like a rule that says we don't swear. I would like a rule that says we don't push people around. What do you think? And see what they say. And you'll find actually when you make it an open discussion children are actually very fair, they have a very strong sense of justice, and when he's actually faced with this is hurting her, what is going on here? You may find that he can talk about it and agree the rules, but I think it's really important for parents to be able to say, you know, we do have rules in this house, and these are the ones that we all keep. I'm not going to call you names and you're not going to call each other names

H: Ok that sounds fair to me. One from Frances now, "is bullying aggressive behaviour linked to hormones? Our 20 year old son lives at home, won't apologise after he's disrupted the whole household as he is never wrong."

S: No it isn't, because if that was so well all teenagers would be bullies, all boys would be bullies – I mean it's not about hormones. Obviously that teenage time when you know, bodies are changing, there is a lot of sort of angst and worry going on, but I think it's more about the change in their feelings and their, you now, how they're growing up than the actual physical changes that are going on. And I think it's quite important actually to not let people off the hook, to not say – because if you said it's hormones you're in a sense implying and it's not your fault. Yes it is your responsibility what you do and say. This sounds as if it's, you know the family needs to sit down and actually work out when did this begin, you know what is this all about? What is this boy angry about? What is he upset about? Were there not boundaries put in place when it first started for instance? That you could actually say, you don't behave in this sort of way. Again it's maybe something that needs the family rules, but at the stage – I think you said – what was the age of the child? 20?

H: 20 so quite old. I think hormones are out the way then

S: Hormones are out the way and also it's a, you know it's a bit late perhaps – actually you can always do the family rules bit, but I think at that point there's probably years of it building up. I might also suggest here that family therapy would be really useful

H: Right

S: Certainly coming to Parentlineplus.org.uk and finding out about telephone counselling to get that sort of support would be really helpful. And I think it's about perhaps doing the tough love bit, which is to say, as I said, in this house we do not – and if you don't like it, there's the door

H: Get your own flat. At 20 anyway

S: I'm afraid so and you – what you must very strongly say is I love you, I love you, I do not like your behaviour. I love you and I always will, but this behaviour is unacceptable and we will not accept it any longer. There's the line. Love always, behaviour, no

H: Tough love. Right here's another one. "I asked my 17 year old son to turn down the TV volume, it was too loud, he swore at me, told me to F-off. I asked him again which made him get very aggressive. He punched my bedroom door, left a hole in the middle of the door. I'm at my wits end", he's – this is a single mother, she doesn't understand why he's got worse the last 3 months. "He's got a good job, great social life, loads of friends, his own car. He's not short of anything. Everyone always remarks what a lovely, polite lad he is, but with me he's what I can only describe as a monster. Please help."

S: Sounds very frightening and you know sounds really upsetting there and I can feel in a sense, you know the upset in that family. But seems to be coming out through him, and sometimes this happens in families that one person is almost like the barometer for what's going on in that family. He's a monster, no he isn't. He's behaving monstrously. He's not a monster and I think it's really important for us to set this in our minds about our children. Don't call them names, don't think of them as names, it's not that he is something, because that sets him. If you tell somebody they're a monster, well they can't change, that's them for life. If you say you're behaving monstrously and we must do something about this behaviour, you then have a way forward. And so again it's about talking about what happened, single parent – is it that this boy has had years of you know wondering why his dad left? What's wrong with him? It suddenly got worse in the last 3 months, well what happened 3 months ago that has suddenly tipped him over? And talking about, you know he has everything, well maybe he has a bit too much, because sometimes what we do is we give our children things because of the guilt of perhaps what we feel we're not giving them emotionally, so there's a dad missing, there's the family you know perhaps there's lots of stuff going on there, and we keep giving gifts rather than saying actually what you need is my attention, you know my discussion, you know that's in fact what children want from you. They want to have a relationship with you. So perhaps the answer here is to stop with the things and start sitting down and talking about you know what is going on. We – again if you come to the two websites gotateenager.org.uk

H: Yes

S: Or besomeonetotell.org.uk which is our specific Parentline Plus bullying site, there's a lot of help there on the website on the message board, because we have message boards,you can talk to other parents, you can also get loads of information, and signposts of where to go to give them a bit more help. It sounds like counselling help would really help this mother, but also perhaps to offer sort of family therapy so that the family can sit down and talk about what's going on here and make some changes

H: Right, so it's all about talking calmly, not reacting –

S: It's all about talking and looking at the reasons

H: Yes

S: You know what happened 3 months ago to suddenly make this, you know this switch of it all got a bit too much

H: Ok. This is one that I can really relate to. "My 15 year old daughter was physically bullied, attacked and abused at school. The boys that carried out this attack on our lovely daughter seemed to be treated as over-playful puppies by the school which seems extremely unfair. Please can you help. Desperate mother."

S: Absolutely. Very, very upsetting situation here. I said originally that you know, deep breath, think about yourself, how am I reacting to this first, the second thing is to talk with the child, what do they want to happen, how do they feel about it? Third step perhaps is to work on raising the self-esteem of the person, so that you're really working very hard on I love you, you're wonderful, you know let's look at the things you can do well. Let's make you confident about yourself, because that affects their, you know, their ability to deal with bullying. The next stage if it's at school is, you go to the school. Now she says the school obviously did something but not enough. Alright, when you're dealing with bullying that's going on, either in school or by pupils who know your child through school, whether it's outside the gates it's still the responsibility of the school – important to note that

H: Yes

S: There is a sort of process really, a procedure that you do. So think about yourself, talk to the child, have a plan, start noting, getting your kid to actually write down what happened when, you know what triggered it, what was actually done, what was said. Write all this down so you have a log in a sense of the incidents. And also get the kid perhaps not just to write it but paint it, draw it. That's therapy as well as actually giving you valuable information. And then you go with that, and as I said there's a process. You start with the main teacher, their teacher, so you go to their teacher and say I'm not happy about this, I want to see the school's bullying policy. Now by law every school has to have a policy on bullying. What they do about bullying, how they're going to deal with it. So you look at it, and in fact if you can get hold of it before you see the teacher and read it through. And what you want to be saying is ok you say you do this, this and this – has this been done? What's happening here? Because the bullying policies are often very good, sometimes they're not put into place, so you want to find out what have you got, and are you doing it. If you're not happy with the result that you get from that teacher, you then go up to the next one in line. So it might be the head of year or it might be a deputy head. If you're not happy with the results you get form that, you ask to see the head. If you're not happy with that you write to the board of governors. And if you're not happy with that, you go to – you actually go to the head of the local authority, the education authority.

H: Right

S: And God forbid if you're not happy with that, you write to the Secretary of State. But you've got to go through all of those – you have to go up the line as it were to make sure that you're doing it properly, and every time you've got not a good response before you, you know you go onto the next one. And keep that paper trail. Note down

H: Everything

S: Keep all the letters, make a note of any discussions, so you can actually show, you know what the discussions have been and how they haven't been helping. But the point is if you go with this you know attitude of I've got this organised, I know what I'm doing, I want this to stop. This is going to stop. Usually you will get – you will get a response

H: That's great advice. Very good. One last question here – "my experience of working with parents of teenage boys and girls is that parents can't manage to set boundaries and put consequences in place unless they can ease the relationship tension and sometimes violence. Are there agencies that could provide this support as I have struggled to find any."

S: Absolutely. Us

H: I was going to say, yes there's no better really

S: Start off with coming to our new website besomeonetotell.org.uk, all one word – besomeonetotell.org.uk which is our specific site to help with bullying, and as I said lots of information there that you can download, and we've got you know e-modules to help you sort of work your way through how to do things. There are wonderful leaflets that you can download there, and there's the message boards you can join to chat to other parents about you know how they're working it, good ideas, it makes you feel better to know you're not the only one and you can share ideas there. And you can also go onto gotateenager.org.uk which is our specific site for teenagers, parents of teenagers. We have a wonderful thing though which is about, we have a sort of cartoon, and the idea is –

H: I've seen that

S: You work your way through it

H: Yes

S: And you can work your way through, ok this is a situation, if you do this, this might be what happens, if you do it this way this maybe what happens. It's very funny, very informative. We've got one on kids coming home drunk and we've got one on bullying and I think a lot of parents would find that really – it's informative but it also at least makes you laugh and you know makes you realise as I said, you know you're not the only one. So there's lots of stuff there that can help you, and we have telephone counselling, of course we have our helpline. There's a lot there, and we have the signposts to perhaps more specific advice depending on what the situation is and what you actually need but I think,you know to a certain extent there's a good point there which is you certainly have to be in communication and you know, be working out what's going on. But I think you need to do the boundaries at the same time. Boundaries are really important for everyone involved, so I think parents need to say I need to find out what's going on, I need to help, we need to get the relationship right, but at the same time I need to draw that line and say this does not go on. Whether it's my child being bullied, my child doing the bullying – pushing around happening in our family, whatever's happening you know we need to tackle the root of the problem

H: Yes

S: To get rid of the symptom which is bullying

H: For more information and practical tips on dealing with bullying, go to besomeonetotell.org.uk and gotateenager.org.uk. Thanks a lot and see you again next time.