H: Mark Rise, Host

P: Priscilla Dunstan

H: Hello there and welcome to the program, it's the Parenting Show, I'm Mark Rise. Now if you're a parent or you're planning to be a parent in the very near future, it can be a remarkably rewarding time as we all know. It can also be for some, a really frustrating time. Imagine your baby constantly crying, you don't know quite – you're still finding your steps – you don't know quite what it wants, you're still learning the way yourself. Now imagine there was a way of translating a baby's cry so that you understood what they wanted, it would be a revolution. Now there's just a possibility that that has been found and we'll be finding out more in today's program. Of course we can't be expected to have a full-blown conversation with our babies, we're not talking about quantum mechanics here, so exactly how does it work? Well I'm going to introduce my special guest to you in just a moment, in fact rather than me introducing her, let's get the introduction from her son Thomas:

“This is about my mum and her discovery, and although I was only a baby, I was taking part in something very important. My mother is Priscilla Dunstan, an Australian who was born with an unusual gift – when she was five she could listen to Mozart once and play it back on her violin, note for note. Her dad, my Pa, a teacher at the University of New South Wales soon realised Priscilla had a photographic memory for sounds. She could hear patterns in sounds, no one else could here. Years later she studied opera singing, and sang Mezzo Soprano. Then, I was born. In hospital she found a special use for her ability. She listened to me and began to hear things no one else could. How I made sounds, gurgles and cries, and she listened. Before long she worked out what I was saying. She opened up a world of sound that everyone wants to hear – the world of a mum and her baby. This is my mother's story and in a way it's my story too. I feel proud that my mum wanted to understand me – to know what I was saying so I needn't cry, but she says ‘that's what parents do – everything they can to make their babies happy,' so I guess it's everybody's story. Now I'd like to introduce to you, my mum, Priscilla Dunstan.”

H: Priscilla Dunstan thank you very much indeed for coming in and welcome to the Parenting Show, brought to you of course by Dunstan's Baby Language – this seems impossible in a whole lot of ways. There will be people who question the validity of this everywhere, and I'm sure that's something you must have come across?

P: Yes I have but you know the mothers have used this and I myself have taught more than a 1000 mothers and we've had independent research done and it's all been amazing with the results

H: The great thing is of course is it passes from one mother, to another mother, to another mother, and this is becoming a worldwide phenomenon – because you're on a world tour introducing it at the moment – you've done America, you were on Oprah Winfrey, you've done Australia obviously your home country – how has the response been? How have people found it?

P: It's been amazing, and it's fabulous to see the results in people that I've never met you know? They've just had the DVD and they've used it and it's worked, and you know getting thank you notes and people stopping you on the street and thanking you – it's wonderful

H: So let's take it back to absolute scratch. The Dunstan Baby Language system is – you are claiming that there is a universal set of sounds that all babies make in the first 12 weeks of their life?

P: Yes that's right and these sounds have meanings and you know, meanings that are attached to needs. And how this works is it's based on reflexes, and when you have a newborn baby, you know the doctor checks the reflexes to make sure it's healthy and all reflexes in newborn babies are the same so when sound is added to these reflexes you get words, or sound signatures which we're calling words, and these words are what a parent can listen for within their baby's cries that tell them what their baby's asking for, what their needs are

H: Is it like learning a language then, once you're tuned into it, and that's the key, tuning into what you're listening for, you suddenly have a whole world opened up to you?

P: Well it is similar in that respect but it's much easier than learning a language because we've all spoken it, it's our sort of primal language so it's very easy for us to hear it just as it's sort of like turning on a switch, and when I teach it to a mother, the mother – I can watch her face and she's looking at all the babies saying the words, and she looks and me and she looks at her baby, and she says “my baby says those words” so it's instant recognition but only after they've been shown what to listen for

H: The fantastic thing is, you've bought out a DVD which actually gives the five basic words – the lessons, and this is what people will want obviously. So what are the five areas that you've covered for people to learn about?

P: They're the five basic needs that a healthy newborn baby between the ages of 0-12 weeks will have pretty much every day. So you have hunger, you have tiredness, burping, lower gas – sorry lower wind, and also uncomfortable which is when you check to see whether they're hot or cold or whether they're nappy needed to be changed

H: I guess the interesting thing is once you've got those keys, there's no more working out – oh are they too hot, oh do they need feeding, and rather than go through every single one, you have a much happier life as a parent as well

P: That's right, I've had parents tell me that they've had checklists, written down checklists and they literally you know their partner and they go through a checklist and they try one thing after the other until their baby stops crying, so now you can pinpoint exactly what the baby needs and just address that need straight away without having to try you know five different things

H: What I find incredible is if this is all true, why hasn't someone come up with it a hundred years ago?

P: Well I think that our society is different, you know – back then you would have had grandparents and mothers and you know your sister and your you know you would have been around your siblings as they were growing up, and so probably this information was sort of subtly passed down, but now we're in different times we're often a lot more isolated from our families, I know that my son was the first newborn baby that I'd ever held, so it's a little different so we need something that actually does the translation for us, but this is actually the first time that I've been able to find that has actually phonetically put words to the cries, and given parents you know something that they can actually work out what the difference is between the cries, so there has been talk with nurses and doctors saying there are different cries, that's well known, but no one's been able to say how do you tell which cry is different from another one?

H: We'll come onto an example in a moment, I just want to go back to how you discovered this in the first place. You have a very special skill don't you?

P: Yes I'm able to hear and remember sound patterns and it's sort of like having a photographic memory but it's for sound, and so I had that since birth and you know it meant that I was able to learn musical instruments at a very young age and I started learning the violin at 2 ½ and when I got to you know the age of 5, my mother – because you know you can't read when you're that little?

H: Of course

P: I can't read music, but my mother would play the piano and I'd just play it back on the violin what she'd just played, and I was very fortunate to have a mother that was very musical and nurtured that side of me and a father who also did the same

H: So when you heard your son Thomas you heard specific sounds in his cries but were then noting them down and keeping careful track?

P: Well my son had colic and reflux and he cried all the time and I took him to doctors and nurses and said you know can you help me with the crying, I don't think it's normal that a baby should cry this much, it didn't really make sense to me that he would be crying all the time, and they said no you just need to learn what his cries mean and work out which one –

H: Which is all very well to say but how – a lot of people faced with that sort of advice would go where on earth do I begin doing that?

P: Well that's exactly what I said, and I said can you tell me how I tell which one is which, and no one could tell me what the difference was, no one could actually write down on a piece of paper or show me or give me anything that told me what is different from a hunger cry as opposed to a tired cry

H: So there was a spark of an idea there anyway?

P: Well I figures I should have known, I mean everyone sort of assumes that a new mother knows these things, there's this big assumption that it all just comes naturally and you know exactly what your baby needs

H: And with the levels of tiredness that new mums deal with anyway it's surprising that they can take anything, so this is a real way of helping – I want to give a specific example if we can, because we've taken one of the words, it's the “neh” sound

P: Yes

H: And you'll see exactly what I mean in just a moment's time, and we will have a look at that and then you can come and take us through what that means

P: Sure

H: And how that was first discovered, so take a look at “neh” with this specific example

Audio footage of baby cry

H: And this is universal to all babies is it?

P: Yes the way this word is made is that the baby becomes hungry, starts to suck as you know as it becomes hungry and then as it starts to cry sound is added to the sucking reflex and that produces a “neh” sound and if we make it ourselves with the roof of your mouth, pretending you've got no teeth obviously and you'll get a “neh” sound and so this is what a parent would listen out for within their baby's cry and or at the pre-cry part of their baby's vocalisation and this will tell them that their baby's hungry

H: And we saw 6 or 7 different babies there –

P: Yes

H: All slightly different but the sound was very definitely there in all of those different cries

P: Yes

H: So you're listening out for the one specific sound within a range in a way?

P: Well it's similar to you know a sneeze, it doesn't matter where you are round the world or what culture or what language – a sneeze is a sneeze and they're all slightly different, you've got some really funny sounding sneezes but you know it's a sneeze, and it's very similar, it's the same sort of principal as this language, where you have a reflex, sound is added to it, and that produces a particular sound and in this word we're listening for the “n” part of “neh” and that will tell us that our baby's hungry

H: It's absolutely fascinating, if you're finding it as fascinating as me I would love you to join in the program this afternoon, we are live here right now and you can submit your questions and the questions will come up on my screen on the studio, very very simple, on the website that you're looking on you'll see a box at the bottom of the screen asking you for your name and you to submit your question and then you just hit submit and it will come through to our moderators here in the studio so please do get involved if you'd like to ask Priscilla a specific question. OK we've dealt with one sound, I don't want to deal with all the sounds because I think it would just complicate things, but just remind me the other areas that the DVD actually covers

P: Ok so we've got hunger which we've just done, “neh” and you have tiredness so when the baby's tired, burping, lower wind and uncomfortable which is when you change their nappy and see whether they're hot or cold, too hot or cold

H: Excellent. Questions coming in already, that's very quickly. Helen wants to know “how long did you spend noting in your journal as you said before you went to someone with your findings before you decided to take it further?”

P: Well I'm still writing in my journal you know it's an ongoing process

H: Yes

P: And you know research again is an ongoing process, you come up with an idea and you research it and sometimes the research keeps going and other times you know it's not the answer you're expecting

H: But you did an awful lot of your own research to start off with didn't you?

P: I did 8 years of research so you know there's a lot of studies, and my father, being an academic, I sat down with him and we worked out together what the best way to prove this was, and then after my research independent studies have been conducted you know by professionals and that was done both in Australia and also in America, in Chicago and you know those results were amazing and more than 90% of parents said that you know it significantly improved their relationship with their child, with their newborn baby so that's the bonding process, more than 50% of parents said they got more sleep which every parent of a newborn baby would be excited about and 100% of mothers with babies for the first time said that it was an invaluable tool and they didn't have this information before and they couldn't have done without it

H: With all due respect percentages are all very well, what kinds of levels of numbers of women who took part in all this research are we talking about?

P: Well I myself have done over 1000 babies, the studies in Chicago were I think 400 and Sydney was at least 200, so there are different numbers and you have control groups and things like that

H: Well I know also that when you went on 60 minutes in Australia, they created a whole panel for you of doctors and experts and mothers and celebrities, all kinds –

P: Yes

H: Of people from the whole spectrum didn't they?

P: Yes they did and you know obviously it's always interesting to hear people's feedback on your work, particularly people like doctors and nurses because they're around babies all the time and they have a lot of information you know that a medical background that you know brings to the table so you know it's fabulous to hear that they were really supportive and that they thought this was definitely something that new mothers needed

H: So what's been the reaction from midwives and doctors and nurses because I suspect when they first hear about it there must be a sense of disbelief just like myself in a way?

P: Yes and I mean there is, because that's their job, they need to check something out –

H: Absolutely

P: They don't disbelieve things blindly and they asked me lots of questions about my research obviously and the principal of how it works, and I take them through the reflex and you know sound added to reflexes, which reflex it is and how it all works and you know they get as excited about this as a mother does when she first hears a newborn baby

H: Well Caroline sent us a question, she said “you've told us that you had the musical gift from a very early age, in that case do you see the baby's cries as kind of music, do you see it in the same way, you hear noise differently?

P: I do - I guess the best example that I can think of is you know most people would hear a tune but I'll hear like a whole symphony, so I just get a whole lot more information than an average person probably gets, and so therefore with more information you can make maybe a different choice or you have different – you know come up with a different conclusion

H: While the DVD covers the 5 basic areas, it's been produced that way because you don't want to throw so much information that you know it would all become a little bit confusing, but there is so much more to this research as well isn't there?

P: Yes there is and it's ongoing, the research doesn't stop and obviously what I hear doesn't stop, I'm hearing all the time but you know parents have – they've got so much to learn and you know you're sleep deprived and it's such a hard time, it's very important that they're given enough that it works brilliantly, but not enough to overload them and make it more difficult, because this is about making parents lives easier and helping them, not about giving them another way of doing things and you know overloading them with too much information

H: But you can walk into a baby ward, a maternity ward and hear so much more as well can't you?

P: Yes

H: And you've talked to specific people who've had specific problems with their children while it's difficult to do specific cases, you do hear more than just those 5 sounds don't you?

P: Yes I do, I hear a lot more and there's a lot of information that comes through in a baby's cry and you know that information is fabulous and you can translate it for the parents to use –

H: Can you give me an example of that just so we know what you mean?

P: Well I - yesterday there was a mother with a premature baby and you know I was just listening to her cry and you know I don't need to hear too much of it, but there's so much information that comes along I could hear you know that the voice was a bit tired, she's having very short sleeps you know there's a bit of phlegm there so she's obviously needing to be held upright a fair bit, there's information like that that comes along, what her preference is, she's a windy baby so she needs to be held upright a lot, you know – there's just a whole – it's almost like someone hands you a file when they hand you vocalisation and then you just listen to it and you work out what the best solution is for that child

H: And everybody has this skill?

P: To be able to hear that? Well my aim is – obviously I hear things a little differently from other people, but my aim is to make it so that I can pass it on to everybody else, so it's in a form that everyone else can understand it and hear exactly what I'm hearing

H: It's absolutely fascinating I think you'll agree. If you would like to ask us a question, we're halfway through the program now, all you've got to do is just enter your question into the little box at the bottom of the screen, hit submit, send us your name as well and Lisa's done just that, Lisa wants to know “does research show about boys and girls cry, do girls cry in a different way to boys or is it universal across the sexes?”

P: In my experience it's universal, we haven't actually studied the difference between boys and girls because we've been studying whether – the cries and what they're meanings are and whether it works and things like that, and how it works, so I haven't actually done that study, but obviously I've got a memory, they seem to be the same but children who are windy, they would cry more than a child who maybe is not as windy as a child that is, there are differences like that. In age obviously there's a period with newborn babies where they cry more than they did before and then it tapers off. So there are ages but they seem to be universal

H: One thing that interested me is you're very definitely talking about the first 12 weeks of life –

P: Yes

H: The first 3 months of life. Obviously if you have a more bond with your baby in the first 3 months, generally, I suspect, that you will have a happier relationship after that, but why stop at 12 weeks, why make that cut-off point?

P: Well reflexes turn on and off with newborn babies, so – for example the sucking reflex which is attached to the word that we just did, “neh”, that turns off between 3 and 4 months, so once that's turned off it's no longer a physical or a primal sound, so that's why it's in this age bracket, and you know you are right, it's very exciting to have these little people born into the world and have them know that they've been listened to from day one, and been responded to and that their voice counts –

H: Which will make them more comfortable I guess anyway?

P: More confident, the parents are more confident, and you have a bond from day one, there's no residual memory of a rough time, you know you've started from day one, you've understood each other, you know the baby's needs have been met, the mother and father and other siblings are confident and taking part, and it's just a nicer way to come into the world

H: We hear so many terrible stories, don't we, about mothers who've had such a hard time, mothers that just can't cope, mothers that have children that will not stop crying. Mothers and fathers of course, because fathers bear a huge brunt of it as well. You're claiming that this is a system that if people go away and learn the five sounds, learn the five meanings to that, it's possible for anybody to have a better relationship with their child?

P: Well I think just understanding and opening up the roads for communication, I mean the babies are making these sounds anyway, and we just need to learn what it – you know how to interpret those sounds, so the baby doesn't do anything differently from what it's already doing, it's just that as a parent you know we're changing the focus of crying, rather than it being a bad thing and a crying baby being a bad baby, you know it's suddenly a baby that communicates well, you know this baby is believing in the parents to meet their needs and therefore being very vocal and communicating what it needs, so you know that's – I think that's a really positive thing and a great thing for self esteem on both levels

H: So you've got the ideas there that anybody can actually take these five sounds and actually work with them, Alexia sent us a really good question, Priscilla – “do you believe in the nature or nurture theory?”

P: I think it's a bit of both, I think with a newborn baby (and this is the great thing about understanding newborn babies from day one) that you'll be able to pick up their personality from day one, and of course you know when you have that understanding and that open line of communication, you're able to see you know whether you enhance certain attributes or whether you discourage others, and you know a parent's role is obviously to educate and guide and you know look after, and so if you have that understanding from day one, it sets the whole scene for the rest of their lives, and that communication forever

H: You'll be pleased to know we've had a number of emails already, a number of messages already going “alright, enough of the talk – where do we get the DVD?” and it's available through the website isn't it?

P: Yes, dunstanbaby.com

H: So www.dunstanbaby.com

P: Yes and there's an example of the “neh” word that they can see a whole lesson there and try it out for themselves

H: Excellent stuff, and we'll give you that at the end of the program as well. Mary-Lee has sent us a question “what was it like to meet Oprah, what did she say?” She's a big fan of Oprah, she loves her, what was it like?

P: Yes Oprah was fantastic and you know she was – to get onto her show, to be on her show, she really tests you out, you know you get checked out –

H: I bet

P: The producers really look into who you are, what your research is like, because obviously she has such a great reputation and you know she's a humanitarian and she's someone who –

H: Bottom line I guess, the American audience – if Oprah says this is good, we'll go out and try it

P: Yes so she's got a responsibility

H: But that must have been a huge influx, a huge wave of new people coming towards you at that point?

P: It was and even when I finished the show there were people waiting for me outside the door and outside the studio asking questions and wanting to meet me and having their photograph taken which was quite an experience

H: But I guess it's very difficult to actually hit the American media with something that will hit coast to coast across such a vast area and Oprah is probably the one thing that you could do that, so I suspect that the American market has just gone “whhoom” onto the DVD

P: It's been a great response from America, I mean fabulous response, and I'm just really really glad that all these mums now have this system and can actually use it with their babies

H: So what do you do at 12 weeks when the guttural sounds start changing, is this the next level of research in a way?

P: Yes it is, it is, and obviously starting at the beginning gives them a really good foothold into understanding their babies, and they've got 12 weeks of you know getting to know this little person, and some of the words do continue on, they don't all stop at that time, it's just that it does change, so the parents are sort of set up from that stage to continue on, and they're obviously listening and that's a big step forward

H: And I know that when you were talking to me before, you do have one word of caution and that's if you're not recognising sounds or there are sounds that you specifically don't recognise, that's when your baby ought to be checked out by the professionals, by midwives?

P: That's right, if any parent is concerned about the welfare of their child or they're worried that you know the cry that their child is making or they think that their child may be unwell, they need to go to a doctor or a nurse, you know and that's just what they should do

H: These are the five sounds to help a healthy relationship for a healthy baby, someone that is well

P: Yes a healthy newborn baby

H: It's a good point to actually make that, Samantha's sent us a great message, Samantha thank you so much for getting in touch, she says “it sounds so amazing, is there one word, or one sound that you hear more than others from newborn babies?”

P: It's different for every baby and mothers will generally hear – I teach it in 2 sections, so there's the first 3 words and then the next 2 and they'll generally hear 2 of the first 3 words and the third they mightn't hear as much, so it just depends on the child, you know some children have you know sleep is a big issue for them, so they're going to be saying that the tired word a lot. If they're particularly windy children, they'll be saying the words that relate to burping and to lower wind a lot of the time, so it depends on each baby, they're individuals

H: I guess because babies keep crying until that one specific issue has been resolved, you hear it repeatedly, so it's easier to actually latch onto that sound?

P: That's right, if you miss it in, you know when you first hear it, you can just keep listening and it will come, but we do say that if you're – don't leave your baby to cry while you're trying to work out what they're saying, you know we would advise you to do what you would normally do and listen while you're doing it, we don't want babies being left to cry while parents are trying to work out what they mean, but it's easier to hear in the pre-cry or in the fussing stage of the child's vocalisation, but it will continue until the need is met so if they miss it then they can catch it later

H: Well Jane has come up with a really good question because of that “how long will it take me to master the art of understanding my baby's noises?”

P: Well I found when I've taught mothers that they watch the “neh” word as we've just played and they will often look at me and then look at their baby and go “I hear that word” and from that point on, they will hear that word in their child, so it's sort of like switching on a switch in their hearing, they suddenly hear all these things. The whole five words can take a bit of practice because you know you're already tired, you've got a lot to do and you know you're just adding in a whole new tool, but to actually start using it, you can use it straight away and you know just a bit of practice, a bit of repetition in watching the DVD will get you completely there within a very short time

H: I'm particularly interested in the reaction from mothers who've bought up children who haven't had this system and then have had a baby and used the system, I bet that's quite amazing?

P: They always say “I wish I had it with my first child”

H: I bet they do

P: Yes but it's amazing and also it's not just for parents you know, grandparents can use this but your point with children - with parents with other children – older children can take part if you have a three year old, they often get very jealous when a new sibling is bought into their world –

H: Yes they do

P: But by sharing this with them, they then become the experts so you have a three year old or four year old running around saying “you know what mum, my little brother needs to be burped, you need to come and burp my little brother”

H: Which is fantastic because it really brings them into the fold of actually being a responsible person within the family doesn't it?

P: That's right and they're important, they count as well, you're giving them a voice just as much as the newborn baby

H: So the young children can hear those sounds as well, of course –

P: They actually pick it up a lot quicker than us as adults

H: Incredible. Steph wants to know “is there a marked difference between children that are raised by single parent families than those raised by two parent families?” Does that kind of make any difference do you think?

P: We're dealing with reflexes so they are naturally occurring and they're the same with, for a newborn baby, as long as it's healthy, so they're going to be making the same sounds regardless

H: Which is why it's a universal understanding, it's just incredible that no one's come up with it before, I think so many parents will thank you for doing it. Marilyn wants to know “how many countries have you tested the universal theory?”

P: Oh I've lost count now but we always try and keep every continent and you know, Turkey, Holland, New Zealand, South Africa, you know Australia, England, America – the list goes on

H: Turkey particularly interesting there because a non-English speaking country, or a non-native English speaking country and I think that probably was very important for the research, that you took it out of the English speaking nations and found that the same sounds were being made there

P: well that was very exciting, I had a friend who was looking for his history, his ancestry, he took a video camera in the observational research because I sent out a lot of people with video cameras to film babies crying all round the world, so he went to Turkey and you get a donkey and you go up to the hills of Turkey – there's no cars – you know there are huts with mud floors and tobacco leaves on the roofs and you know filmed babies, strict Muslim community, you know no English, no Western civilisation up there at all, and his wife had to film the babies, and when that tape came back, all these babies were very clearly saying all these words and you know it was very exciting

H: Was this like an epiphany for you, were you going yes this is what I thought, this is worldwide?

P: Well at the time I thought this is a problem, because I didn't know why it was universal, so when I first found – got all these tapes from around the world I thought ok this is appearing to be universal, so why? And it was after that that I started hanging out in university libraries and studying medical journals and you know anatomy books and everything I could get my hands on, journals and just trying to work out what it was that made it so, and after you know extensive investigation, I hit upon reflexes and that was it

H: And now universities across the world are begging to continue this research and actually take it further and do larger studies, so that must be really interesting, the next stage of this as well?

P: Well that's right, with – we know it works, so many parents have tried it now, we've had independent studies done, but it's how does it work? And obviously my research as a mother can go so far, and then independent studies take over and then after that the universities start doing what they do with it, so we're at that stage and obviously I continue my research into the next lot of words and I figure it will become a bit of a cycle and you know it will be very exciting

H: It certainly will, good luck with the rest of the tour across the UK

P: Thank you

H: I know that we're the first television that you've done in the UK so thank you for coming and seeing us. You'll be seeing an awful lot more of Priscilla Dunstan. If you would like to get hold of the DVD and as I say we've had lots of people getting in touch with us, really simple you go to dunstanbaby.com – www.dunstanbaby.com, good luck with it –

P: Thank you very much

H: I'm sure so many people will be fascinated and thank you for watching the Baby Show bought to you by Dunstan Baby Language, I'm Mark Rise I'll see you next time.