Have you ever wanted to improve your employee’s skill base but not had the time or resources to train them? Chances are you’re probably not alone and here to offer you advice about how to teach people on the job is Director of Apprenticeships Stephen Gardner from the Learning and Skills Council. Alongside him in today’s webchat is finalist in the Large Employer of the Year category of the Apprenticeship Awards in 2006, Gina Mcdowell.

There are currently 240,000 apprentices working in over 130,000 organisations in England alone, across 80 different sectors of industry yet teaching people on the job is still the best way to train up those entering a new industry.

Currently, among 16 to 18-year-olds in the UK, just one person in 15 is on an Apprenticeship but the Government wants to increase this to one in five over the next decade. New research from the Learning and Skills Council shows over three quarters of employers offering Apprenticeships believe this made them more competitive, and they produce higher overall productivity with 4 out of 5 saying Apprenticeships reduce staff turnover.

To discuss the options available, as well as the benefits for employers former apprentice himself, Stephen Gardner and Gina Mcdowell join presenter Glenn Thomsett in the studio to discuss the first ever LSC Apprenticeship Week….

H: Glen Thomset, host
S: Stephen Gardener, director of apprenticeships, Learning and Skills Council
G: Gina Mcdowell, finalist 2006 Apprenticeship Awards

H: Hello and welcome to the Business show brought to you today with Learning and Skills council, I'm Glen Thomset. Now, have you ever wanted to improve your employees' skills base but not had the time, the money or the inclination to do so? Well today we hope to change that whole attitude, because today this program is all about apprenticeships, becoming involved and also if you're a company to get involved. It is National Apprenticeship Week and here to help us describe and explain more about it and give good advice I hope, is Stephen Gardener who is the director of apprenticeships at the Learning and Skills Council, and also Gina Mcdowell. Now Gina is in fact – her company, the company she works for one the finalists – was one of the finalists in the Large Employee category of the Apprenticeship Awards in 2006, I hope I've got that right Gina? I have, start with you if we can first of all Stephen. Companies getting involved in the whole apprenticeship scheme – is it easy these days? Are more and more companies getting involved?

S: Well it's not right but certainly right that there is the perception that that is the case. As we speak there are about a quarter of a million people on an apprenticeship scheme, so it's far from going away or reducing, but it is true to say that what a lot of people regards as apprenticeships, the engineering base, there might be factoring base, suffered a decline in the 70s and 80s and a significant number of apprenticeship places were lost during that time.

H: What was that down to then?

S: Well it was the reduction in the numbers of people who were employed in manufacturing, and also the perception that there wasn't the career prospect that there used ot be there. But what people don't realise is that apprenticeships have grown up in lots of other sectors, because that's what apprenticeships do. They've been with us in this country since I think about 1200 and something, and they always follow the employment pattern because that's what an apprenticeship is, it's one generation learning their skills from the previous generation, and that's an excellent way of passing on skills

H: Gina, now you were one of the finalists in 2006, didn't you, what was your apprenticeship, how did you get involved with your scheme?

G: Well I actually did an apprenticeship, and engineering apprenticeship with Land Rover, so I've been with Land Rover for a number of years, and progressed up through the company and was privileged enough to actually end up running the Plus 16 program for the dealer network, so you know I've come through an apprenticeship background and know and have benefited from the way that apprenticeships work, and wholly believe that what we're doing at Land Rover is the right way to teach our apprentices the skills that we need to move the dealer industry forward

H: It has been, what 1 in 15 people learning an apprenticeship, you want to get that number down don't you?

S: We do, we want many more young people to have the opportunity. What we do know is that every time an employer advertises for an apprentices, they're overwhelmed by the number of young people who want to take that opportunity on, and we and the government feel that that should be available to more young people so what we're doing is encouraging many more employers to look at the real benefits to their business that apprenticeships bring, because we've done research among those people who offer apprenticeships and they tell us that their apprentices are more productive, they produce better and higher quality of work and contrary to what people might think they actually stay with the people that trained them longer, they're more loyal to their employer than people who haven't come through the apprenticeship route. Because this is one of the worries that people think well if we train our staff, they'll be poached, they'll go away. Actually it's not the case, when you look at the evidence, they stay longer

H: Ok well don't forget this is a live, interactive webchat, so if you want to get involved and put your questions to our guests in the studio today, Stephen and also Gina, feel free to fill out that little box at the bottom of the screen and just hit the submit button, your questions will come straight through to us here in the studio, I can then read them and put the questions to our guests, so anything to do with apprenticeships, maybe how you want to get involved n apprenticeships, if you're a company and want to get involved in the whole scheme as well. What are the favourite areas though Stephen? Which apprenticeships are – I suppose in a way – over-subscribed these days?

S: Well the vast majority are over-subscribed but the biggest area, the greatest – the sector that has the greatest number is still construction. And engineering is still strong, has a very strong apprenticeship base and there's still a lot of engineering that goes on in this country. In terms of young people there are a lot of young people that want opportunities in media, and the culture and creative industries and the environmental sector is growing fast as well. There's a lot in retail, a lot in hospitality. But it is across all of the sectors, so if you imagine what sector you want to work in, generally there's an apprenticeship there to help you to get started in that job

H: It's interesting because when I left school back in the 70s, I'm not going to tell you how old I am, it was a long time ago now, but you were almost urged during your career sessions at school to take up an apprenticeship, and in fact all of my friends I think, we all left school and went into some sort of apprenticeship. I learnt to be a carpenter and joiner, I did 5 years – 3 years rather – as an apprentice. On the job apprentices, you know learning on the job – 6 months at college, the rest 2 ½ years as day release at college, I don't think you can beat that on-the-job training can you? It really is very important

S: I'm sure you can't. Actually putting into practice the skills that you've learnt, and you're right that mixture of learning the skills, in an off-the-job situation and then applying them in a real situation where your job is measured the same as a skilled person is, the only true way to measure your competence and that's how – that's still how it works, that's still the best way of doing it and there are still lots of carpenters I'm glad to say being trained, but we need more companies to offer more chances

H: Ok we'll get onto how companies can get involved in that a little bit later, but for you Gina, your whole apprenticeship – how long did it last for you?

G: My apprenticeship was a 4 year engineering apprenticeship, and one of the things that we suffer with predominantly in the motor industry is people still have a perception of lower skilled people, and with the accreditation technicians now you know we're saying we actually need really bright and motivated young people to come into the industry. An apprenticeship is a way, an alternative way to higher education to do that, and to attract those people through the natural apprenticeship route into the industry

H: How can you guarantee of getting a bright person involved in an apprenticeship scheme though, do they have to go through a series of tests first of all?

G: We do – at Land Rover and Jaguar we do pre-tests, so they have to go onto the web, they have to do a number of mechanical comprehension tests, things like that, but really seeing the whites of somebody's eyes is always a good way to assess whether a) they're confident and b) whether they're going to be somebody that you want within the industry

H: And did you enjoy your apprenticeship, I mean what was the money – I'm not going to ask you to tell me what money you earned, but I think a lot of people leave school and wonder about going into the apprenticeship scheme because they think they'll get poorly paid, the money won't be any good – but that's not the case is it?

S: No it's not the case. There is a minimum that every apprentice must earn which is £80 per week, but the average and we survey apprentices, the average is over £150 per week now. And that recognises the fact that an apprenticeship is actually a job, it's a job with training, so from day one and when you start your apprenticeship you'll, like you when you started your carpentry, your skills would have been relatively few, so you'd have been mainly a learner and not that productive to the business, but as time went by there would begin to be things that you could do, that would actually contribute to the business, so most employers start off around that level and they gradually increase the wages as they increase their competence, but of course that's somebody starting out at 16. £150 a week which rises rapidly and that's not a bad start, particularly when you look at what people who've completed an apprenticeship earn afterwards, and we know from research into the wages of people who've done an apprenticeship that their lifetime earnings are substantially more than people who haven't. We're talking £100,000 over a lifetime of additional wage income for those that have got that apprenticeship, so it's well worth it for an individual

H: People always talk about the plumber earning 3, £400 a day – and we're always reading in the papers that not enough people are there filling these trades, like the plumber. I mean I know that a lot of colleges are over-subscribed but the plumbing is an example. Do you think there are enough people going into that sort of trade now, the plumbing, the building, the carpentry – that sort of area?

S: Well it's interesting that you pick plumbing out because plumbing had a lot of attention

H: Absolutely yes

S: And therefore a lot of people went into training. But the thing about apprenticeships is the numbers are self-limiting, because you can't finish an apprenticeship until you've spent a substantial amount of time in employment and so the number of employers willing to train you is the limiting factor, and so going on a college course is not enough, you've got to apply that in a real situation. Now, we have had a situation where the interest generated by the media over-subscribed plumbing. But there were vacancies in carpentry, electrical – electrical is particularly lucrative and particularly – it's a good career to enter, so it's not always what appears in the media but it is true to say that some people in those trades, working in London and on high value contracts earn a lot of money

H: Ok

S: They work hard for it but they've got the skills that they need to be able to do that, and so it is very lucrative

H: Ok. Well if you're a business looking in today and you want advice on how you could become involved more in the apprenticeship scheme and getting people involved with you, stay tuned, advice coming up very, very shortly. Questions coming in thick and fast, thanks for filling in that little box at the bottom of the screen, hit the submit button they come through. One here for you Gina, Jane from Woman at Work website says “what's the solution for the one-man bands like me? I did take a student on via Small Steps I think it was called many years ago, but it's so difficult when there's just one of you having to oversee someone is really hard if that person is not proactive in any way.” How can you ensure someone is proactive?

G: I don't think you can ensure somebody's proactive you can give them an environment that they become proactive in, you know and that comes down to motivating them, you know understanding what it is that they need, but working with a good training provider you know who will offer that motivation, who will offer that – you know training behind the scenes is always something that you have to look for. We're fortunate enough that we have our own contract and a large number of apprentices that we can you know push through the system, but it is difficult if you've got somebody who you perceive doesn't want to learn. There are a lot of people out there looking for work that really, really do

H: Ok. Paul from the website Is4profit asks “are there any particular industry sectors where small businesses particularly benefit from taking on apprenticeships?” Or apprentices should I say? One for you Stephen

S: Well I've linked this to the last question because sole traders and sole businesses do have particular problems because the – it's all very well us saying that the statistics show that they're retention is better, but of course if you're a small business you only have ot train one person and for whatever reason if they leave that's a big effect on your business, so small businesses need to be really careful about the recruitment process and make sure they get somebody that fits their business, and that's one of the reasons that the world class apprenticeships report that was launched 2 weeks ago talks about trials that we will be carrying out to support the wages of sole traders and small businesses so that we're off-setting some of that risk and we don't – generally the Learning and Skills Council pays for all the training costs, but we expect the employee to pay the wages. For small businesses and sole traders we're looking at how we can help with the wage costs to give that little bit of extra assistance because we recognise that implication. But wherever you operate as a sole trader, and let's not forget apprenticeships, the tradition of apprenticeships in this country was based around a master and an apprentice

H: That's right

S: So it was essentially about 2 people interacting and it was at the sole trader level. It's a relatively new thing that we have big companies who offer hundreds of apprentices. So it's the same thing that must apply there, you've got to choose the right person, and then as Gina said a training provider because your business might not support the whole range of activities you need to complete an apprenticeship, so training providers can help by moving the apprentice around for short periods to get perhaps the skills that you're not able to offer at that time

H: Ok

S: But the rewards are great and our apprentices of the year awards, we have for the employer a category of micro business, and when you look at the companies that have won that, there was a small florists that was a sole trader, and she took on one apprentices, doubled the size of the business at a stroke

H: Amazing

S: Of course that's an excellent way of growing your business

H: Ok. More questions coming in, thanks for keeping these questions coming in. Charlie Whitman has been in touch, wants to know “what financial incentives are the government offering businesses to take on my apprentices?”

S: Well we fund all of the cost of training, so the costs that we assess are necessary to train that apprentice we pay for those. And as announced 2 weeks ago there are now trials of how we might make subsidies for the wages in some circumstances, so those are the ways in which we support them. And we find that employers, with the use of a good training provider they find that's a good way of starting an apprenticeship

H: Ok. For somebody like yourself, how would you advise people wanting to get involved in the schemes, would you urge them strongly to go for it and stick to it, because I guess a lot of people join an apprenticeship scheme and then suddenly they're halfway through and they might think well this isn't for me

G: Apprentices themselves?

H: Mmm

G: Yes I mean we always say to our first year apprentices that you're going to have times where you think you know it's easier to go and get a job externally, where I'm earning more money and you're going to have hard times in the business, but what we do with our apprentices is we bring them in locally for training on a block basis so they get to meet other apprentices that are around the industry, they get to have that interaction with people that help from people, and also our instructors will go out into the business and see them in their workplace to give them that help and support so we have a tri-party arrangement between their employer, you know as a dealership, us as a training provider and ourselves, and you know them as the apprentice, so we put a high level of support out there to hopefully get them past those doubtful times where there might be you know thinking of moving on. We don't have a very high attrition rate, we keep apprentices in the business so I think we must be doing something right in that respect

H: Job for life though, once you've got that qualification it is a job for life isn't it, even if you want to go away and do something else as I did. I mean I – goodness only knows how I ended up doing this job but – from being a carpenter, but the nice thing is I've still got the tools and I'm currently doing some work on my house at home so you can always sort of fall back on whatever it is you've learnt to do in the first place

S: That's quite true and also it isn't just the skills that you learn for that trade because apprenticeships also involve problem solving and working environment where you have to think for yourself, those are skills that translate to any sector that you choose to go into, and where we do have sectors that decline you find that it's easier to place the people that have been apprentices because they've got that breadth of skills and they can apply to any area

H: Absolutely

S: From carpenters to television

H: Bizarre mix I know, don't ask me how it happened. Sorry –

S: I think the key with keeping your apprentices is to realise that they are learners and you need to support them through –

H: Yes

S: That process. The construction apprentices can last up to nearly 4 years, there's no time limit on apprentices now, they're about achieving competence when you get there, but 4 years for somebody who left school at 16, that's a big change takes place in your life and so employers need to recognise that and support them, and the best employers, the best schemes, like the Land Rover scheme have mentors where if there is a bit of time when, you know somebody's wobbling a bit and there's somebody to talk to, and somebody to encourage them – just that little bit of encouragement to paint the picture of what it's going to be like when you've achieved

H: Are large companies obliged to have such an apprenticeship scheme, do they have to?

S: no, in this country it's open and free so every employer takes a choice. In other countries it's not so, it is legislated for. In our country we choose to motivate employers by persuading them of the benefits, and some part of the role of the Learning and Skills Council is to publish the data that says they're more productive, more reliable - but it's voluntary and we need more employers to be involved

G: And we see that ourselves, I mean we have our first years where the dealers are quite happy to let our first years out on as many blocks as we can have them and train them for. In the second year, you know they're less motivated to give them up for their block placements, you know and in their 3rd year we've had to do work around how we can bring them in because they are so highly productive and valued within the dealer networks that it's very hard to try and get them back out of the dealerships for that training, so you know we see that as they progressively go through from the first to the third year, that suddenly the dealers start to want to keep them

H: Oh right

G: In the network

H: is that quite a common thing?

G: Yes

H: Ok. More of a quote I suppose really, Howard Mitsol I think it is wants to know “I run a small business in the past I've taken on apprentices but I've sometimes found them to be lacking in basic, social life skills therefore I tend to employ 2nd, 3rd jobbers instead.”
That's an interesting one

S: It is and I think it's disappointing. I personally think, and I speak to a lot of young people, I think young people get a very bad press. And it is very easy to come across one young person that then colours your judgement of all young people which is not the case. All I can say is that I see a lot of young people and the motivation that they have and the desire to succeed is strong. Now it's not always apparent on the first meeting with them, but when you talk to them a lot of young people are actually quite shy and quite nervous and giving them the opportunity through an apprenticeship to develop, and I think being in Gina's position and seeing these young people come through, they've got a lot to offer. They're talented, and I think it's unfair to say that you know they're lacking in those skills. Although obviously you have to take things as you've seen them yourself.

H: Ok do you feel loyal to Land Rover, the company that took you on? I guess you must do now, there is that loyalty there isn't there?

G: Yes and that will always be there, you know but that's just personally for my benefit. Taking on board the social issues, we do a lot of things on the program to address those social skills, you know because we do recognise that through no fault of their own and perhaps societal risks that we have in, you know in our societies these days, children come through, or young learners come through in an environment where perhaps they haven't been given the social skills you know or they are lacking. However you know if as an employer you can put in place things that do motivate them, do get them interacting. Our block placements where we take them away from their homes, we take them away from their dealerships and they have to interact with other groups of young people, really bring them out and really make them flourish, so it's about putting in not just the hard skills that they need to complete an apprenticeship but also those social skills, those communication skills, those interaction skills you know that they need then to go back into the business, because as Stephen said they are very open and willing to learn, it's just about you know pulling them out of themselves and motivating them to do that

S: I think what's also good about the Land Rover scheme is that they work downwards into the schools, so they don't start just recruiting people who come out at 16, they'll go and work with the schools in the area where they are, to go in and tell them about the industry and to tell them about Land Rover and how they can – and that inspires them to get to the point where they want to apply, and they've begun to develop those skills. And I know you also do things about interviewing to make sure that people represent themselves well when they come to interview

H: Ok, final question to you Stephen – “how can companies embrace the apprenticeship scheme if they're not already, how can they get involved?

S: Well I think the first thing to say is if you've been involved before and you've had a bad experience then have another look. Apprenticeships are – they have changed over the last 5 years, there's been dramatic improvements in the numbers of apprentices who achieve, so have another look. If you've not been involved before, get involved now. Go along to apprenticeships.org.uk on the website and have a look how you can get involved. There's many ways but the best way is if you're an employer to offer an apprenticeship program

H: Ok. So apprenticeships.org.uk is the website Stephen's mentioned, and there is one that you've mentioned as well Gina is landroverapprenticships.com I believe is that right?

G: Yes I mean I add to what Stephen's saying there, for an employer who is hesitant find an employer that does support an apprenticeship program and speak to them about, you know their experiences. You know because most employers that do offer schemes are more than willing to talk to people about their experiences, about the benefits that they see so you know we would welcome people who were hesitant you know speaking to us about our experiences too

H: I'm afraid we're out of time, thank you very much for all your questions, Stephen Gardiner and also Gina Mcdowell thank you very much for your tips and advice today on the Business Show. We hope you enjoyed the advice as well and we'll see you very soon. Thanks for joining us, bye bye

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