H: Glen Tomset, host
S: DCI Stuart Dark, Met Police
J: John Moore, DVLA

Hello and welcome to the Motoring show brought to you by the DVLA, I'm Glen Tomset and it's nice to have your company today. Now then, if you own a car do you happen to know what one of these is? This is a V5 form and do you know if the one you've got is valid? Maybe the one you've got is invalid. A lot of them are circulating at the moment. If you are one of those people with invalid forms, don't worry, you're not alone. They've released a survey, the DVLA saying that half of motorists can't tell the difference between a legitimate form and a fake form. Well to discuss this matter further I'm joined today by DCI Stuart Dark of the Met Police and also John Moore from the DVLA. Gentlemen thanks very much for joining us today.

S: Afternoon

J: Hi

H: I'll start with you if I may Stuart. Alarming figures that have been released recently on this whole issue. How alarmed should we be that all these fake documents are circulating?

J: John actually

H: Yes John

J: I think we should be alarmed, I think if we're looking at this survey more than half the people don't know how to tell that document from a fake, and I think that's very concerning. I think if people have got the document, there's a number of things they can do. If you hold it up to the light, you can actually see there's a watermark in a genuine one. You can see DVLA's imprinted all the way through. If you notice the text, very uniform text. On a lot of forged documents the text is not quite perfect like that, it tends to be miss-spaced, the type character font is not the same. I'd say if anyone's got a car or they're going to look at a car, you've got your own document now, you've got a genuine document for your car – use that document as a blueprint to check the details, understand the colour arrangements, see what a real document looks like, and when you go and look at the other document, check it, make sure it matches. The only documents which are in circulation, there are some which have gone missing, these are genuine documents but with false information put on them, and as you can see the serial number at the top there in the small circle on the top left hand side, if it begins with the letters BG 916 to BG 919, those should be very suspicious documents, those are the ones which are from a number range which have gone missing and people may be using them to fraudulently support vehicles

H: DCI Stuart Dark, should people immediately, after they've seen this webcast today go to their documents and check their paperwork straightaway? Are there a lot of these documents circulating at the moment?

S: There are and what we need to look at is thankfully the headline figure for vehicle crime in the UK theft of vehicle is on the decrease and has been for some time, however we only recover around 65% which means there's an awfully large number of vehicles that are out there, ready to be sold onto innocent members of the public. And the reason why we're supporting the DVLA in this campaign around getting to know the documentation, making yourself safe when you buy a second hand car, is that vehicle crime is quite unique, in that what happens is the first victim normally has some level of insurance, they're insured so that the loss that they actually suffer will have some sort of money coming back to them. The person that does suffer the big loss is the innocent purchaser who then goes out and buys that car, thinking they're getting the car of their dreams when in fact all they're doing is they're putting their hard earned cash into a criminal. And the reason why that is so hard for us to deal with and such a substantial loss for the victim, is that person isn't insured. You can't buy legal rights to stolen property, no matter whether, if you've paid the money out in good faith. So what happens is at a point some time in the future, either the police come along, the insurance company come along or the original victim comes along and that car goes back to them, and you've lost the market value that you paid for that car

H: Ok. David, Kate and Harry have been in touch with us already, and by the way if you do want to get in touch with us here at the studio, very simple, there's a little box at the bottom of the screen there, just fill in your question, type that in, and then hit the submit button, your questions will come straight through to us here in the studio on the screen in front of me and I'll put the questions to our two guests today. John, a lot of people – as I say David, Kate and Harry have been in touch, they want to know once again, just to reiterate that proof if you like that you've got a legitimate V5 form – what is the proof once again that it's legit? You talked about the watermark

J: Right I think the simple way, if you get your document, if you open that document up and you simple hold it up to the light, like that, you can see there's running across there, printed in the paper is a watermark saying DVLA, DVLA – it repeats the message over and over again through the document. I think that's one of the key features. The other bit is the serial number there. The serial number at the top, as I said. There is some with the serial number beginning with a prefix BG 916 – BG 919. Those documents we do believe are not genuine, but hopefully there's not many of those in circulation, but I think that the purpose of this campaign is to reiterate the message that we have seen some coming through and as Stuart's explained there, people who are in the business of cloning vehicles, of selling vehicles back up these fraudulent cars with fraudulent paperwork and that's where people are being ripped off and it's costing people money

H: Stuart, we talk about these forms, people rush to their filing cabinet, they get out their car file, they look for their V5 document, they suddenly realise this document is illegal. What happens? Do they call the police, do the police come and tow their car away, it's the only car they've got – what happens?

S: Well a number of forces deal with the process differently. First of all they need to make contact with the police and actually say look this is the situation I've got, because your insurance for your car is on the details that you've given the insurance company, and if you suspect the vehicle you're driving isn't the vehicle that you've given the details to, there may be an issue around the insurance to actually drive and in the event of you having an accident. There's also ancillary issues, for example the road worthiness of the vehicle, the criminals that are actually changing the identities of these cars which at some points is actually taking stamped in chassis numbers out of the chassis, taking engines out –

H: They go through everything don't they?

S: They go through everything now. There is an issue that they are only concerned about changing the identity, they're not concerned about the road worthiness of the vehicle they've sold on, so there may be issues around the safety of the vehicle that you've actually got sitting in front of you, so we do advise people to actually contact the police and get the vehicle checked out

H: In a way that runs on from what Jack has said, he's been in touch with us, wants to know “if my car turns out to be fake, the form turns out to be fake, does that automatically mean that my car has been stolen?” Presumably it does?

S: I would say that the first thing that the police do is the forms would be a starting indicator but they'd actually do a physical examination of the vehicle to confirm suspicions, because what you might actually have, you might have well the car I've got in front of me isn't the one that's on the paperwork, but we still need to get to the bottom of well if it's not that car, what car is it? And we need to actually then go through that process, so you know it's – it is a long, drawn out affair

H: What sort of age sector are we talking about here there John, is it the young lads if you like the 17-25 year olds who can't be bothered to look at the paperwork, they literally just want to get straight in the car and drive it off with their mates? Who are we looking at?

J: I think

H: Whose most vulnerable if you like?

J: Yes that is a problem, you know and I wouldn't split it entirely by age groups, you know anyone potentially is vulnerable. I think another point that came out in the survey there is 25%, 20% of people don't even ask to see a registration document, so if you look at what the document provides, it provides a certain amount of reassurance, when you go to buy a car, on that document is the name and address of the keeper, someone who is selling the vehicle, who is the person you're buying that off, do the name and address match? Do the vehicle particulars match; you know the description of the car, the colour, the engine number, the chassis number? Check all of these details but don't simply concentrate on the paperwork, look at the vehicle, look at the venue where you're buying it. Never by the vehicle for example – meet somebody at a motorway service station, always buy it from a home address. Young people though do end up victims of crime, you know for a number of reasons I think. Firstly they've not got the experience of buying cars, it's a first car, I certainly remember my own experiences of buying cars, you know I was ripped off several times and I don't think a great deal has changed now, people are very keen and very eager to buy their car, and perhaps they leave common sense a little bit behind, when they've got the money burning a hole in their pocket and they're desperate to get that car. If they want to protect themselves, a few basic things – we've got a website address www.direct.gov.uk/motoring, there's plenty of tips there, things that the people can do to avoid being ripped off. You can also use the services of checking companies, HPI, those sort of organisations, the motoring services, AA, RAC, they all offer inspection service. Obviously it costs them money but at least it's a little bit of money upfront rather than losing everything, and young people do tend to be victims of this, I think because of the naivety it can cost them dear, so it may be worth investing a little bit of money at the beginning to avoid problems further down the line

S: And I think following on from what John said and it is very valid, if you actually look at people's mindset when you go to buy a new car, they do a lot of checks to make sure that they're buying something which isn't an old banger. They get the AA in, they get the RAC in, they get people to check the road worthiness of the vehicle, and what we're trying to say is you need to use the same diligence that you're doing with that around am I actually buying a stolen vehicle, because the financial loss is going to be far greater for you if you actually get saddled with a stolen vehicle than actually an old banger

H: What are we talking about penalty-wise in terms of being fined?

S: I'm not talking about the penalty-wise of being fined, what I'm actually talking about for the victim, if you're an innocent purchaser, if the car gets taken off you, you're losing the market value that you paid for that vehicle, so you could be looking at £20,000, £30,000 and you have to look at – what we're actually trying to say to people is that it's probably the second largest purchase you're ever going to make, and when you buy your house you will have solicitors, you'll have estate agents, you'll have people with legal knowledge and experience to advise you, whereas this one you're on your own, and what we're actually saying to people is bear that in mind, there's a lot of cash at stake and you need to make certain that you're actually getting what you think you're paying for

H: I think you mentioned John, you fell into the trap of buying the odd rogue banger years and years ago when you were younger and I always remember taking my dad and uncle along with me to look at my first couple of cars, you know they knew what they were looking for, they had good advice. If you haven't got a dad or uncle with you then maybe take somebody as you say from the AA or get good advice from a local garage or something as well

S: The difficultly as well that we're experiencing is that the villains involved in this type of thing know that people have a little knowledge around this, they will produce a false V5 to you, they will produce false documentation, they will actually say to you, if you say I'm going to do a HPI check or another company which actually will check whether the vehicle is reported stolen, whether it's been involved in accidents, whether it's got hire purchase outstanding, that type of thing. A lot of the public know these things exist, but what the villains actually do is they say don't worry about doing that, I've saved you the cost, here's one I've done for you earlier. Plausibly looking as though they're helping you out, whereas in effect what they're doing is they're making you think everything's alright but they're giving you another false document. So what we actually say to people is look if you are going to check, do the checks yourself, phone the companies yourself, £20, £30 or whatever they pay is small compared to the losses that you might actually get

H: Ok, well if you've just joined us, it's nice to have your company today. There is a helpline by the way, that you can call, it should be going on your screen very shortly, it's 0870 241 1878, 0870 241 1878 – the website address if you want advice, John can you give that out again?

J: Yes www.direct.gov.uk/motoring

H: He says that very well, very well and my guest today DCI Stuart Dark of course from the Met Police and John Moore from the DVLA, some of your questions coming in, do keep them coming in, we'll get through as many as we can today. Just fill in that little box at the bottom of your screen, hit submit and it'll come through to us. So Sarah's been in touch, she wants to know gents, “my son is looking to buy his first car. I'm worried that he'll rush off and buy the fastest, cheapest one he sees?” - that's a very, very common practice I think – “what advice can you give him to make sure he doesn't end up with something that's stolen?”

S: Couple of things I would say around this. The first one is yes you need to know about the documentation in the vehicle, so ask questions, check the log book, check the log book matches the numbers that are on the car, make sure the two match up and also if you can get hold of the log book of the vehicle which you know is genuine before you go so that you can actually know what you're looking at, so that you know if you're confronted with a forgery. Equally important, check the validity of the person that's selling the car, does the person whose selling the vehicle match the car? The location you're buying it in, is it somewhere that if it all goes wrong, the police have got a starting point and can go back and start making investigations for you. Sadly we come across people that have actually, the only point of contact is mobile phone number, the only point of contact is a cafι that the people have arranged to meet, or it's been outside in the street or it's a pub car park and those –

J: You'd avoid those places like the plague really wouldn't you?

S: Those types of things, alarm bells should start ringing, but unfortunately as John said, the danger is that people have seen the car of their dreams in the magazine, or whatever route they've taken to actually identify the seller, they've actually started imagining I'm driving my friends down the high street in this vehicle, and what we're actually saying is no stop, they are plenty of cars out there, start asking questions, make sure you see the person, if it's a private seller make sure you see them at their house, make sure they go in the house, or you go in the house so that you actually know that they've not just parked outside someone's house and saying that that's their house. Make sure the documentation's there, check things like the MOT, if it's an older car, check things like the service history of the garage, phone up those people and find out

H: This is such obvious stuff but people don't do it do they?

S: No

H: What you're saying is such obvious – to me and probably to a lot of people watching in today, it's obvious to do but a lot of folks don't do it

S: But I think one of the dangers is as John said earlier is the people involved in this, it is their business, the villains are looking for somebody to come, and they're very plausible, they've got very plausible documentation, and people actually go in there and think they're asking the right questions or think they're doing enough to actually make them satisfied, but the people are one step ahead of them that are doing this to them, and what we're actually saying is if you've any doubts walk away, that's the simple thing, the risk is too big for you, walk away

H: Don't feel intimidated either

S: No

H: Ok. John one for you here – Leah Grey wants to know “are new drivers at risk more than others?”

J: I think potentially they are yes, new drivers have got no experience of motoring, they've never had this documentation before, they've never taken a car for an MOT, I think yes basically they've got little experience with that document. If you look at new drivers in terms of victims of car crime generally, they do suffer disproportionately because a number of reasons, you tend to buy older vehicles, older vehicles don't have the security measures of more modern cars, they're easier for someone to break into. Younger people do like better quality stereos, MP3 players in the car people are quite willing to break in and get that sort of thing, and yes you know I hate to say it but when you're young you do make some rash decisions and I think a lot of people imagine that people who get ripped off with these cars, they see a car which is massively below the standard price, you know if a car should cost £10,000, this car's going for £5000 – is it too good to be true? Well it's rarely that simple, the people as Stuart have mentioned are very plausible to do this, they don't sell a car worth £10,000 for £5000 they'll sell it for £9800, just a little bit below, enough to get someone interested, they'll haggle for it, they'll appear genuine. I know certain police officers suggested to me that one way people may find to help with this is to say to the person that's selling the car “do you mind if I take a picture of you?” Everyone's got a mobile phone now; take a photo of the person selling the car. If they start objecting strenuously, I don't want my picture taken, you might think that's a bit odd, if I wanted to sell a car, if I was desperate to sell my car people could have as many photos of me as I wanted, you know I'd be more than happy to do that. It might be all those things, small tactics to try and find out whether the person is genuine, whether the car's genuine, whether the paperwork's genuine, I think you've got to do all 3 to satisfy yourself and make sure that you don't become a victim of this crime

H: Another thing that just literally crossed my mind, what if you're buying a car on one of the many auction websites now where you're doing the bidding and what have you, you've won the bid, you've won the car but you've seen no paperwork – how do you get on with that?

S: I think one of the things, and this is an increasingly popular medium, and what we need to realise here is that we're not saying to the public be fearful of buying second-hand cars because there are bargains to be had and it's a legitimate way of doing things, what we are saying is within that big market sector, there are people that are actually making a good living out of conning people. Now what we would say around the internet and around the boom that's going on around that, we're currently working with the major people that advertise cars around making sure that they're sites are secure, putting sound advice on the sites and once again it comes back to a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, in that what happens is people go onto these sites, they think they know what they're doing and they actually don't listen or don't read up quite fully on what the site is saying if you're going to use this site, this is the safe way of doing things. And what happens is the criminal networks behind this actually sit within the site and they actually entice the victims off of the site, outside of those safeguards, and they can actually target them. So what we're actually saying to people if you're going to use the site, if you're going to use anything, any of the major companies now, whether it's a magazine or a site, will carry advice. Get to know it because it's – at the end of the day they know what they're doing and they're trying to protect their good name and you as their customer

H: Ok. Brian's been in touch with us, thanks very much for that Brian. By the way if you want to submit a question to us, we'll get through as many as we can, fill in that little box at the bottom of your screen there. Brian wants to know “are we only likely to get stung by an individual private seller or should we be cautious of forms from dealers as well?” Tricky one that

S: I think one of the things – and yes we're not saying this is solely on the private sector, we are saying that you know these stolen cars are out there, but what we are saying is that dealers are slightly different. If it's a reputable dealer and you've checked and they've been there for a number of years and they're well-established, you know them, it does give you a starting point that if they sell you a stolen car, you can actually make a civil claim against them and they will have assets and you're likely to get your money back through the civil courts. We've also got a starting point for a police enquiry, because they need to actually exercise due diligence about the cars they're bringing in and the cars they're selling out, so we've actually got some point we can start an investigation with. The real danger around this is with private sellers is that if you haven't actually nailed the person down to an address, you haven't done things like get their photograph, you haven't done things like check the paperwork or – we won't have a starting point either for a police enquiry or for you to actually go right I've lost all this money, I'm going to claim against somebody to get the money back through civil court – there's no one there, so what we're actually saying is there's slightly more protection around used dealers for those reasons

H: What are the police in reality doing though, because you read and hear of stories of people who have had their car stolen, they've got false documents, they get given just a crime number. This follows on in a way to what Michael says, he wants to know “40,000 stolen cars, can't believe it's so high. What are the police doing to combat this problem?”

S: I think I, I can only speak for London because that's the region that I work with, my unit actually covers the organised criminal networks behind it so we're actually targeting the people that are enabling these crimes to happen, the people that are shipping the vehicles, the people that are helping them disguise the identities and sell them on. Now in the last year we've recovered £15 million worth of stolen vehicles, we've disrupted 15 organised criminal networks, in that sort of line, now that doesn't mean that we're actually winning, because what happens is there are big profits in this and what will happen is we will actually create a vacuum and other people move into it, so we've got to raise our game. Now nationally the Association of Chief Police Officers formed something called the AVCIS which is the Auto Vehicle Crime Intelligence Service, that's only just been established and is hoping to draw in all the information that we've got around these gangs in the UK, so we can do better targeting, so the future's looking rosy but I'd say that there are conflicting – as always there are conflicting issues, priorities for policing, and this is just one of the areas we've got to concentrate on

H: It must be a mind-boggling number of cars to deal with though for you guys? Really I mean you say for you just the London area's pretty tricky but the whole country, there's so many cars out there you know, so many people this is happening to, it must be a mind-boggling organisation

S: I think we need to put into context, we can actually say there are an awful lot of stolen vehicles out there, but you've only got to look at how many vehicles are on the road, how many legitimate car sales go on daily to realise the scope of the industry behind this, and this is a very small fraction

H: You're watching the Motoring Show brought to you by the DVLA today, and don't forget that helpline number if you'd like to get in touch, if you've just joined us and you've missed some of what the guys have said here today 0870 241 1878 is the number, 0870 241 1878. Couple of questions here which I'm going to roll together for you gents, one for you John – Graham wants to know “if my car is in fact a stolen car, will I have to give it back, will the government refund me the money I paid?” and also Frederico wants to know “where do I stand legally if I've been conned by a seller?”

J: In short, yes, no and on very dodgy ground yes. If you do end up buying a stolen car, you don't retain any titles to that vehicle, that vehicle will be returned to the rightful owner, whether that's an insurance company or a previous keeper. No the government will not compensate you, we will not pay out, where do you stand legally? It's a very difficult issue and I think again that's part of this campaign. Stuart's mentioned there the various lines of address that you've got, if you buy a car through the trade, privately – it's a lot simpler to make sure that you don't fall victim of crime in the first place. You know I think with many people I'm not saying that they're going into it totally blind, but clearly the survey's indicated there that a lot of people a) don't understand what the V5 process is about, and I'm not saying that the V5 is the be all and end all, it's one part, it's part of the jigsaw which you put all these separate parts together which should lead you to make a balanced judgement, but people have got to be aware that there's a whole pool, a whole network there waiting to rip them off, waiting to part them from their money, and you've got to take action before you go on, and I think the better educated you are on what to look out for the more action you take in advance, the more advice you take, whether that's practical, taking someone to look at the car, taking a friend, looking at what the documentation is, going on the website, checking that information, the more chance you've got of avoiding being a victim of this, and as we said, there's a lot of vehicles out there, 29 million plus vehicles is a realistically – the number of vehicles which are stolen is relatively few, but if you think how many other items worth 20 or £30,000 – you don't even put them in your house, you leave them on the road. Not even outside your front door, quite often down the road, they're just too tempting for some people, they'll take those and they'll make a lot of money on them, so I think preparation in advance, knowing what you're doing, taking all steps to avoid becoming a victim, that's the answer to the problem

H: It's almost getting to the stage where you think well I'll avoid a private sale, I'll just go to an authorised dealer really doesn't it, in a way? It makes you wonder where you should go

S: I think what we are trying to say is people don't shy away from private sales but go in with your eyes open, there are risks involved and the way I take this is if you actually take the car out of the equation for a minute, what you're actually talking around doing is doing a substantial cash transaction with someone you've never met, somebody you've never met at all, you're unlikely to meet them again, and you've actually got to start thinking that could be someone just up the street. Why am I doing this? Who am I – what am I asking, how can I be satisfied that I'm going to actually get anything back out of giving this money away? And that's what we're trying to get, that mindset of make certain that you're absolutely satisfied that this can't go wrong for you, because the risk is too great

H: In a way that's indirectly answered Henry's question who has written in saying “I recently bought a car which didn't have registration documents, how can I check to see if it was stolen?” John

J: A number of ways. Presumably Henry's had to apply for a registration document now, he's going to find out whether one is issued to him. But as I say, again no one should buy a car without a registration document, you know you go and look at a car, you're looking blind, that document gives you all sorts of information about the vehicle you're looking for, and I'd ask the question if I wanted to sell my car, the first thing I'd do is make sure that I had all the legal documentation to convince the seller that the car was genuine, to convince the seller that this was a car that they should buy, and I think you've got to ask the question why would someone try and sell a car and not have the documentation? Besides that there is a fee, if you buy a car and you don't have the registration document you've got to pay just short of £20 for a duplicate, you won't be able to tax the car until you get that registration document. If you've bought a car and received no paperwork with it, we'll delay issuing that document for at least 3 weeks while we write to previous keepers to make sure someone is not applying for those documentation fraudulently. So it's going to delay you getting on the road, it's going to delay you legally getting on the road, and in all that time you've got a vehicle sat there which you may be able to do nothing with, or the police may have been involved because you might be committing offences, so yes always insist there's a registration document when you buy a car

H: Ok, hope that's answered your question. Also Vicki's been in touch, wants to know as well as checking documents are there any physical checks, actual physical checks Stuart to a car that should be carried out?

S: There are a number of identifying marks on cars. You should have, there should be, on a newer car there is a thing called a Visible VIN which is on the front windscreen on the near side, on the passenger side, that will be normally starting with VIN which stands for Visible Identification Number and then it will have a long number behind it. That should correspond with the log book you've got, the V5, and what we are saying with that is that there is a danger that if they have got a fraudulent log book that it will actually match up, so it comes back to what John's saying about making sure that that document is the correct one

H: Is part of the document that you take over

S: That's right. On the engine there will be an engine number as well which will be unique to that engine which should, unless the engine's been removed and put in another vehicle, that engine number should correspond with the registration document, the V5 as well, but you've also got the number plate on the front, but number plates are very easy to be changed, so really we're saying look at the stamped in VIN number, it will either be on the windscreen, there'll be a plate inside the bonnet of the vehicle normally, and there will also be a stamped in chassis plate somewhere on the vehicle as well. So there are 3 different places that that's likely to be, and then the other thing is the engine number. So there are lots of numbers –

H: Lots of ways, ok

S: But what I would say as well, around that is if you've got a particular make or model of car in mind, then actually go and see one that you know is legitimate, and work out where all these numbers are before you actually go and look for the one you're going to purchase

H: Talking of specific models of cars, Steve says “I've just bought a one year old BMW at a bargain price” – good to get a bargain Steve, everybody likes a bargain – “all the documents seem fine to me but is there anything I should look out for?” he says. Surely there's lots to look out for?

S: If the documentation seems true then great. Now you can actually go into your local police station and say look I've purchased this vehicle, can you confirm for me whether it's stolen or not and give them the details and they can actually do that. They won't go into more details around previous keeper or whatever but they will actually give you an indication of whether the car is stolen or not. But it does come back to is that what we're trying to do is not look after the event and look after people that have actually bought a vehicle, and what do I do now because it will be a lengthy, painful process if you do get caught like this. What we are saying is go in with your eyes open, have a look at vehicles like the one that you're about to buy, have a look at the log book so you go in there and you know what you're looking for and what to check, because what these gangs do is they do clone the vehicles so that you might have a plate which looks something like the plate but isn't the right one

H: Ok, John just remind us again of a legitimate, legal document as opposed to a fake one, that's a legal on, a V5 document. What should we look out for, what should we check on that document?

J: Ok a number of things, firstly if you're buying the car check the details that are recorded on this match the details of the person selling the car. Does the name match, does the address match, where you're buying the car. Inside does the physical detail on the inside page, the vehicle details there, do they match the vehicle? Does the document appear genuine, has it got all the usual serrated edges, is it a photocopy, you know this document, all these parts are serrated, ready to tear off for people to send the proper bits, all the right colours on there. Again if you hold it up to the light there's a watermark that runs all the way through the document, DVLA, DVLA – the fakes don't have that. Finally there's a serial number at the top there, that will be a genuine serial number although there are some genuine documents, genuine blank documents which have gone missing, which begin BG – Bravo Golf – 916 through to BG 919. Anyone who is buying a car and offered one of those documents should avoid it and the chances are that that document is fraudulent. And finally check an existing document. If you've got a document for the car you've got now, you know that's a proper, legal, legitimate document, take that with you when you look at a car, check the new one against it. All of those documents should be the same, you've got a harmonised European Registration Document, they're exactly the same now as they were a couple of years ago, your document should match

H: Ok John give us that website address again if anybody's in any doubt

J: Ok the website address for full tips on buying a car is www.direct.gov.uk/motoring, all sorts of tips there to give you a good idea on buying a car

H: And that helpline number once again just to remind you, 0870 241 1878, 0870 241 1878 – Stuart Dark and John Moore thank you very much for both joining us today and hopefully we'll see you again in the not too distant future

S: Thank you

J: Thank you

H: Thank you very much